Please keep the forum protocol in mind when posting.

Regular REL » Post: Possible cheating at FNM

Possible cheating at FNM

Nov. 25, 2013 05:57:20 PM

Martin Varga
Judge (Uncertified)

Europe - Central

Possible cheating at FNM

This is what happened at FNM I was judging:
We were in the middle of round 2 of FNM (standard) that I was judging and playing as well. We had 18 players therefore we were split in 2 rooms. Suddenly Thomas came to saying: "I think that I saw Chris cheating. He used his Maze's End and while searching his library he put his Supreme Verdict on bottom and than shuffled it on top." As we came to the table Supreme Verdict was just played by Chris. He would have lost the game to an attack and next turn he won by getting his 10th gate.

I must say that I was quite lost what to do here. I haven't done any cheating interrogation before so I don't know how to do that neither how fill it in the reporter. I have also considered how much would interrogation slow the tournament if I don't drop in order to do it.

What I did:
I came to the table and watched the guys playing. Chris did not present his library for a cut after his next activation of Maze's End so I instructed him to do so and told his opponent that he should always shuffle his opponent's library after it has been searched.

Than away from the table I thanked Thomas for comming to me and asked him to watch Chris playing whether he does something suspicious again. I also watched the Chris's play to see whether is he doing suspicious for the rest of the tournament. Perhaps he was aware of us because no offence happend for the rest of the tournament. He also always presented his library for a cut to his opponents since I have instructed him that he must to do so.

Nov. 25, 2013 09:32:49 PM

Niki Lin
Judge (Uncertified)

BeNeLux

Possible cheating at FNM

Hi Martin,

I just did a seminar for the Benelux judges on cheating while shuffling. The problem is in this case that you have no hard proof, but remember, if you believe hard enough that Chris was cheating you should point him towards the door.

What I would do is first confirm the story and find out if the deck was actively presented or not the previous time as well. I would in this case confront Chris with the hard facts:

- You have been called out by somebody who was sure enough to get up and get a Judge for loading a Supreme Verdict into top deck position
- You would loose the game if you didn't topdeck a board wipe, how lucky did you consider yourself?
- Spoon it in if necessary: “Don't you think it makes you very suspicious, topdecking a last out, without presenting your deck”
- Ask him to shuffle like he shuffled previously. Confirm the technique. He might not cheat this time and have a “honest technique”, but it might be that his opponent sees a difference or variance. So confirm with the opponent. Tell him that (in all cases) it's very easy to bring a card from bottom to top.
- Try to be proactive in investigating, mostly cheaters will have an answer ready for your first question, but not for question 2 and up, let them step up that dark and slippery slope of a possible DQ, you will find their lies/inconsistencies if you interrogate further.

I personally believe all three critereas are in place to DQ this person: He has broken the rule about shuffling, he has done it to gain an advantage (otherwise he would loose the game) and he is obviously aware that he is that shuffling should be done totally randomized and not in his fashion.

Maybe it's difficult for DQ'ing somebody at FNM because it's supposed to be casual, but remember that you show a lot of other players good customer service as a judge by protecting them from cheaters like him.

What a high level judge told all of us during the seminar: “As a judge don't accept that your opponent doesn't shuffle your deck even at regular. That way you will create an atmosphere where people will start shuffling their opponents deck in your community”

Edited Niki Lin (Nov. 25, 2013 09:35:11 PM)

Nov. 25, 2013 10:20:33 PM

Ji Li
Judge (Uncertified), WotC Staff

Greater China

Possible cheating at FNM

I thought you could check with the witness first, ask him what have happened, then go to the suspect and find if something changed in his story.

Besides, you should ask Chris and his opponent, if they did the cut after shuffling in early game. If something changed suddenly, you could ask why.

If the player did something wrong, remember to ask him, if he knows it was not permitted by the rules.

I thought in your situation it is very hard to DQ this player, cause we didn't have enough evidence. But we should still do the investigation. It doesn't matter if we didn't find anything worth, the investgation would tell others, we will do investigation, and we treat Cheating very seriously.

Maybe I would take the same action like you if I didn't find any evidence. But there's still 1 thing we could do: educate the players.

P.S. As we all know, the cheater always cheats. So be patient, and observe the player carefully, if he cheats, you won't miss the DQ again.

Nov. 26, 2013 06:14:35 PM

Alex Zhed
Judge (Uncertified)

Russia and Russian-speaking countries

Possible cheating at FNM

As one of our senior judges likes to say, you don't need evidence for court - you need just enough evidence so you could be certain. Just enough, so you could decide for yourself what's more possible: that he was cheating or that it's a simple coincidence. And if first possibility is a lot more possible, even if you aren't 100% sure and have no hard evidence, it's a DQ.

So, it's a good idea to question this player _after_ you finish your match (and he finishes his) - so, if you'll be quick, your investigation won't delay this round a lot. Nick provided a lot of excellent points and questions to start with.

In current circumstances, considering that Chris didn't present his library for a cut and his manipulation with Supreme Verdict was obvious even for an outside spectator, it's very, very possible that my questioning and investigation would result in DQ.