Fathom Mage (find her in the WotC Gatecrash Card Image Gallery) has an ability that reads: “Whenever a +1/+1 counter is placed on Fathom Mage, you may draw a card.”

Will this ability trigger when Fathom Mage enters the battlefield already with a +1/+1 counter on her (e. g. because she has Undying due to an Undying Evil or entered the battlefield after using the first ability of Zameck Guildmage)?*

The only similar card I found is Flourishing Defenses which indeed works fine with creatures with persist. However, in that case the ability is written on another permanent which is already in play and thus ready to have its ability trigger. Whereas Fathom Mage isn't yet on the battlefield when the replacement effect takes place – and after that it's probably too late for her ability to trigger.

Who can help?

* This is a replacement effect, see CR 614.1c.

121.6. If a spell or ability refers to a counter being “placed” on a
permanent, it means putting a counter on that permanent while it's on the
battlefield, or that permanent entering the battlefield with a counter on
it as the result of an effect (see rule 614.1c).

Paul Smith

paul@pollyandpaul.co.uk

Just a quick reminder going forwards - as with the judge mailing list, we don't discuss upcoming sets here until the FAQ with all the attendant rules appears :)

@Paul Smith: Please read the full question before answering. Thank you.*

@Kim Warren: Great. Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the FAQ in hand, my question is probably answered and there'll be nothing left to “discuss” here…

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* Yes, it is a replacement effect (already mentioned in the question); yes, that means a counter is placed on a permanent (see Flourishing Defenses example); and yes, that can trigger abilities (see Flourishing Defenses example again).

The question is: Since the replacement effect takes place “while” Fathom Mage enters the battlefield, will it be able to trigger her own ability? You see, abilities of permanents only trigger while they're on the battlefield…

Originally posted by Mario Haßler:

@Kim Warren: Great. Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the FAQ in hand, my question is probably answered and there'll be nothing left to “discuss” here…

I think that's the point of waiting - if there isn't a card currently printed which covers a situation like this, then there is a reasonable chance that the rules don't support it, or at least, not clearly. So it is better to wait for the rules to be updated via the FAQ before trying to predict how something new works. Until the FAQ is released, we're just speculating. And if we speculate incorrectly, then people's first impression of how the card works will be skewed. And we all know how difficult it is to overcome a first impression of how a card works. (I thought Birthing Pod could be used as an instant right up until I activated it in an opponent's end step a few weeks after the prerelease!)

Mark

Mark has pretty much nailed it. It's been policy for a long time, and we are continuing it here - if the FAQ that we have before the cards is released contains the answer, there is no need to ‘discuss’ it here anyway :)

Going to lock this thread now, as a result.

Just to add to Kim's note:
1) Kim is authorized to moderate topics on this, and other, forums;
2) the Protocol has been firmly established for several years, and has always been readily available to anyone using either Rules-L or Judge-L (the old mailing lists);
3) we are going to “sticky” that protocol to some of these forums, possibly as early as today;
4) we don't discuss rules questions, we answer them;
5) it's OK to wait until the FAQ for the answer, because we never have to field a rules question from players until then.

And now, back to locking this thread. Thanks for your attention and consideration.

d:^D

Now that the FAQ is out, I can [O]fficially answer this.

You will draw cards when Fathom Mage enters the battlefield with +1/+1 counters.

To determine whether and how a triggered ability triggers, you look at the game just after the triggering event (with a few exceptions, like leave-the-battlefield triggers, but we're not in one of those cases).

For the ability to trigger, you therefore need two conditions:
- the triggering event happens,
- the triggered ability exists just after the triggering event.

Rule 121.6 cited above indicates that the event “+1/+1 counters are placed on Fathom Mage” indeed happened, and Fathom Mage has the triggered ability when it's on the battlefield. The conditions are met, so it triggers.

Daniel Kitachewsky
L3, Paris, France
Rules Netrep

Edited Daniel Kitachewsky (Jan. 21, 2013 12:04:11 PM)

Thank you Daniel. Paul already pointed me in this direction, but we couldn't share this in public because the thread was closed. He had a good example with Harmonic Sliver.