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Rules Q&A » Post: Corpsejack Menace entering the field with a counter

Corpsejack Menace entering the field with a counter

Jan. 29, 2013 09:10:38 AM

Farid Taoubi
Judge (Uncertified)

German-speaking countries

Corpsejack Menace entering the field with a counter

I think you just misinterpretes CR 614.12. In the context of CR 112.6g and CR 614.4 the second part of CR 614.12 can only mean replacement effects of static abilities, that affect the object itself. Since any other replacement effect of that permanent's static abilities is not applicable.

At the time you want to apply the replacement effect of Corpsejack Menace on himself as it enters the battlefield his own static ability doesn't work as of CR 112.6.

CR 614.12 says you should take the static ability into account to determine the characteristics as the object would exist on the battlefield, but not that you actually should apply its effect in contrary to CR 112.6.

Edited Farid Taoubi (Jan. 29, 2013 09:12:44 AM)

Jan. 29, 2013 10:01:46 AM

Mario Haßler
Judge (Uncertified)

German-speaking countries

Corpsejack Menace entering the field with a counter

Originally posted by Farid Taoubi:

CR 614.12 says you should take the static ability into account to determine the characteristics as the object would exist on the battlefield, but not that you actually should apply its effect in contrary to CR 112.6.
I read your answer a couple of times, and then… click! I think now I got it! The part starting with “To determine…” is not telling me to collect further replacement effects, but just to have a look at the characteristics and abilities of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, sorting out what to take into account and what not, and then decide whether the replacement effects are applicable or not.

Trying to apply this on some fictitious examples:
  • A replacement effect “Creatures with flying enter the battlefield tapped” will cause a creature without flying enter the battlefield untapped even when Levitation is there (because of “ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it”).
  • A creature named “Corpsejack Distress” with “If one or more +1/+1 counters would be placed on Corpsejack Distress, twice that many +1/+1 counters are placed on it instead.” entering the battlefield due to Undying will receive only one +1/+1 counter (because it's not an ETB replacement effect matching CR 614.1c or 614.1d, and CR 614.4 prevents it from being applied to the Undying ETB replacement effect).
Right?

Jan. 29, 2013 02:46:30 PM

Todd Bussey
Judge (Uncertified)

None

Corpsejack Menace entering the field with a counter

It should be noted also that Melira, Sylvok Outcast doesn't have a replacement effect.
Her static ability makes the action of putting -1/-1 counters on her controller's creatures an impossible action.

Jan. 29, 2013 07:17:11 PM

Nelson Mendoza Moral
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))

Iberia

Corpsejack Menace entering the field with a counter

Rule 614.12 is only partially relevant to the original question. The important part is the one I quoted in my first reply, but it's (specially the bolded part and the example) just a direct consequence of rule 112.6 when applied to abilities that create replacement effects.

So to determine whether a particular ability works in a particular zone, we only need to look at rule 112.6. Most abilities from permanent cards only work while the card is already on the battlefield. However, there's a very small group of abilities from permanent cards that work as the permanent enters the battlefield. The ability from Diregraf Ghoul is an example of the latter: it only works as Diregraf Ghoul enters the battlefield. The abilities from Corpsejack Menace, Orb of Dreams and Melira, however, only work on the battlefield. The ability from Tatterkite is active on the battlefield but it also works as Tatterkite enters the battlefield.

Back to the original question: in this situation Corpsejack Menace's ability is not active yet, so it doesn't apply, and that's all.

The second part of rule 614.12 (“To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, …”) tells how those replacements apply, but it doesn't really matter in this question. It's there because sometimes a replacement effect needs to check the characteristics of a permanent as it enters the battlefield. Since at this very moment the permanent technically doesn't exist yet, we need to “predict the future”. Rule 614.12 just tells us how to do so.

So, rule 614.12 is relevant when it's not clear whether an ability of the permanent exists as it enters the battlefield. Also when the replacement effect applies only to permanents with a given characteristic, or when it applies in different ways depending on the characteristics of the permanent. It's not relevant at all when the replacement effect needs to check any other kind of info from the game state. In such cases we just look at the game state prior to the event.

Examples where rule 614.12 is relevant:

-Bramblewood Paragon and Conspiracy (naming Warrior) are already on the field. Runeclaw Bear enters the battlefield. The bear spell is a warrior and the bear permanent will also be a warrior, but when we check to see if Paragon applies to it, we ignore Conspiracy, and the bear enters without a counter. However, if Chameleon Colossus enters, the changeling ability is taken into account, so the colossus will enter with a counter.

-Sunburst is a keyword ability that applies to a permanent as it enters the battlefield. If the permanent enters as a creature, it gets +1/+1 counters, but if the permanent enters as a noncreature, it enters with charge counters. If March of the Machines is on the field while Heliophial enters, it will still enter with charge counters. If Sculpting Steel enters as a copy of Etched oracle, it will get +1/+1 counters.

To sum up:

Question: Does this ability work from this zone? This question is answered by rule 112.6.

Question: If this ability is working and creating a replacement effect that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield, how does the effect check the characteristics of the permanent? This question is answered by rule 614.12.

Also, do note that Undying is not a replacement effect. It's a single, direct, unmodified instruction to put a permanent onto the battlefield with a counter. Normally, the effect from a resolving spell or ability instructs to put a permanent without counters and then another effect replaces the instruction to put a counter on the incoming permanent. Persist and undying, however, do all in one step, so nothing is replaced.

Jan. 30, 2013 03:10:29 AM

Mario Haßler
Judge (Uncertified)

German-speaking countries

Corpsejack Menace entering the field with a counter

To “predict the future” is the point that I missed at first, but now I understood. And I also re-looked at CR 112.6h to finally understand why Tatterkite's ability prevents him from entering the battlefield with a counter. (That was the real question I wanted to ask instead of making up a trap in form of the second example in my previous post as an excuse.)

Thank you all for your efforts and patience! I learned a lot with this topic, so it was worthwhile, at least for me.