I have read and searched the Comp Rules regarding Last Known Information (LKI) and how it ties into effects. Some important rules relating to my question are in 112.7a and 608.2g. Most, if not all, references to LKI are related to sources and targets. But what if a number in an effect comes from a non-X cost?

Cards like Airdrop Condor, Altar of Dementia, and Barrage Tyrant (just to name a few) have “sacrifice a creature” as part of an activation cost. The effect refers to a characteristic of the sacrificed creature (In these examples, the abilities look at power, but some abilities look at toughness or converted mana cost). Intuitively, I would use the creature's LKI to determine how much damage to deal, cards to draw, cards to mill, etc. If I sacrifice a 2/2 creature with 2 +1/+1 counters on it, I would deal 4 damage, or draw 4 cards, etc.

My problem (and purpose for posting here) is that I can't find a comprehensive rule that supports this notion. Since the sacrificed creature is in the graveyard, and it has been using its printed characteristics since the ability was put on the stack, it seems that by the time the ability resolves, it would use the creature's current characteristics. After all, it's IN the zone it's expected to be in (the graveyard) and that zone is public. You can also see that the sacrificed creature is neither the source nor the target of the ability, so why would LKI be used?

Can someone reference the comprehensive rules that justify using the sacrificed creature's characteristics at the time of activation to determine the effect, as opposed to the sacrificed creature's characteristics in the graveyard?

Edited Roger Dunn (Jan. 5, 2016 03:08:47 PM)

You're looking at the right rule–608.2g. With the relevant bit highlighted, it reads:

608.2g If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself or a target that’s become illegal, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 112.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.

While sources and targets are given as two examples of specific objects that a spell or ability might require information about, they're not given as an exhaustive list. All information an effect might require about any specific object is covered by 608.2g, even if that object is not a source or a target.


The thing that tells you to look at the characteristics of the object as it existed on the battlefield isn't a rule–it's the wording of Barrage Tyrant (and friends) itself. Such cards say “the sacrificed creature's power” (or toughness, CMC, etc.), and since they're using a card type without using any of the words “card”, “spell”, or “source”, we know they're looking for an object on the battlefield. (CR 109.2) The specific object they're referencing is the creature on the battlefield that was sacrificed to pay the cost, and that specific creature no longer exists, because as far as the game is concerned the card that mysteriously appeared in the graveyard immediately after it disappeared is a completely different object (CR 400.7). So, per 608.2g, we use the creature's LKI.

If Barrage Tyrant and company were trying to reference the card in the graveyard, they would have to do so explicitly, by saying something like “equal to the power of that creature card in a graveyard” or similar. Which is terrible.