Originally posted by Shawn Doherty:

So, this forum isn't really the place to discuss whether a judge handled a situation correctly or not. We weren't there and only have second-hand details of the situation.

You are absolutely right.
My intent in posting wasn't to say “the judge handled poorly this call” - not by any means.
Rather, my intent was asking “suppose we rule out cheating - what would you do?”

Originally posted by Riki Hayashi:

Originally posted by Eric Slater:

Bill was choosing between academy ruins and mox opal, both of which had another in play. Started at first to discard the ruins, then chose to switch to mox opal. Maybe because Abe had a fulminator mage in play.

This seems much more relevant than the Lightning Bolt that was discarded, although what card they didn't discard could be relevant to decision-making. However, that AP chose their card to discard and showed it also isn't an automatic lock-in here. What's relevant is whether NAP made it clear that they had made a choice. Separating a card and holding it in front of the graveyard could be a way to indicate this. But were they holding it face down or vertical with the card face facing them? The former seems much more definitive as a physical indication of a choice. The latter could be them leaning towards choosing the card but still thinking. Did NAP start to show the card, see the Lightning Bolt, then pull it back?

I can't remember exactly how Bill was holding the card, and I would say he should have indicated better that he was still thinking then. Holding one card away from his hand near the graveyard, and Abe paused and gave him time to say “wait” or something along those lines. And being that I wasn't in Abe's seat I can't say for sure how much of the card was shown.

Originally posted by Francesco Scialpi:

My intent in posting wasn't to say “the judge handled poorly this call” - not by any means.
Rather, my intent was asking “suppose we rule out cheating - what would you do?”

Assuming that I believe that Bill made a choice, saw the Bolt, and then changed his mind, what I might do in the moment is ask Abe to step away so that I can talk to Bill without revealing Bill's cards (and I'll ask a judge to stay with Abe). Then I'll ask Bill to talk through what his thought process was, and what actions he physically took. My goal is to see if he says “I was going to discard X…”. If I can figure out what card was originally going to be discarded. I might ask him to follow through on that. I'm not entirely sure I'd make him do it as a Ruling, but I'd strongly encourage it out of fair play considerations. Then again, I may involve a Team Lead or GP HJ and see if they support me making him discard the original card. A lot depends on the outcome of the investigation. Making him discard what I believe was the original choice is the closest I can get to performing a Back Up, which is the fix for a GRV (which this is).

While I've marked Shawn's answer as our Accepted Answer, I don't want to discount Riki's follow-up; he shares a number of important thoughts.

I'll add that Abe apparently didn't think he needed to confirm that Bill was ready to discard before revealing the Bolt - that's going to be a common assumption, based on what's been described here - and Abe could have prevented any problems by simply saying “ready?” before revealing his choice. However, don't take this as Abe being at fault, in any way - Bill implied that he'd made his choice, and Abe acted reasonably.

To emphasize what Shawn said: definitely a GRV for Bill, and an education re: how to handle this in the future… once your investigation clears Bill of Cheating, that is.

d:^D

Originally posted by Eric Slater:

I can't remember exactly how Bill was holding the card, and I would say he should have indicated better that he was still thinking then. Holding one card away from his hand near the graveyard, and Abe paused and gave him time to say “wait” or something along those lines. And being that I wasn't in Abe's seat I can't say for sure how much of the card was shown.

All of this potentially plays in an investigation. If AP's impression of NAP's body language/ non-verbal communication was “this is my decision.” I would caution against using “time” as a measure of this though. If you ask players “how long did you wait” you will get a completely arbitrary answer that isn't that useful, especially as it will often differ from what the opponent says. Rarely, you can get some kind of consensus and that can lead you in one direction.

Edited Riki Hayashi (May 22, 2019 02:15:39 PM)