Edited Joshua Feingold (Oct. 15, 2014 02:19:47 PM)
Edited Chris Wendelboe (Oct. 15, 2014 01:58:12 PM)
Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:
Anna casts Swords to Plowshares targeting Nadine's Deathrite Shaman, which she cast on her previous turn… Nadine untaps and sees that Anna put the Shaman in her graveyard instead of exiling it.
Separate infractions committed or discovered at the same time are treated as separate penalties, though if the root cause is the same, only the more severe one is applied. If the first penalty would cause the second one to be inapplicable for the round (such as a Game Loss issued along with a Match Loss), the more severe penalty is issued first, followed by the less severe penalty in the next round.
Originally posted by Chuck Pierce:Yup. We missed that. The initial post has been updated to correct the confusion.
I think there's some issues with pronouns and who is doing what here.
Originally posted by Milan Majerčík:
I agree with you, Christopher, but I would not give two Warnings to each player. Both errors are basically the same. There is also a paragraph in IPG mentioning this situation:Separate infractions committed or discovered at the same time are treated as separate penalties, though if the root cause is the same, only the more severe one is applied. If the first penalty would cause the second one to be inapplicable for the round (such as a Game Loss issued along with a Match Loss), the more severe penalty is issued first, followed by the less severe penalty in the next round.
If a player takes an action called for by an effect controlled by his or her opponent, but does it incorrectly, both players receive a Game Play Error – Game Rule Violation.
Originally posted by Separate infractions committed or discovered at the same time are treated as separate penalties, though if the root cause is the same, only the more severe one is applied.:
This covers the case where judges come up to a table and find multiple errors. In many cases the errors are separate; like doing a deck check and finding marked cards and a 59 card deck. Another example is when a judge finds a player has cast a creature with the wrong mana and resolved its ETB trigger incorrectly, and then when the incorrect trigger is discovered, the players realize the creature couldn’t even have been cast. In both examples there are two infractions, that do not have the same root case, and therefore both should be applied. However, sometimes multiple errors share the same root cause - such as players thinking Heroic triggers off abilities, and repeatedly using equipment to trigger Heroic. In that case, the root cause is the same, making it one infraction. The line about “only the more severe one is applied” is a bit misleading, because 99 times out of 100, the multiple penalties will be of the same type, and therefore have the same level of severity. But in case it ever does happen, the judge will know what to do.
Originally posted by Milan Majerčík:
Well, I think we could use some definition of what is exactly meant as “the same root cause”. IPG itself is not very specific.
I agree that the most obvious use for it is in a situation you have mentioned. In my reasoning, I got inspired by the Annotated IPG which says:Separate infractions committed or discovered at the same time are treated as separate penalties, though if the root cause is the same, only the more severe one is applied.
This covers the case where judges come up to a table and find multiple errors. In many cases the errors are separate; like doing a deck check and finding marked cards and a 59 card deck. Another example is when a judge finds a player has cast a creature with the wrong mana and resolved its ETB trigger incorrectly, and then when the incorrect trigger is discovered, the players realize the creature couldn’t even have been cast. In both examples there are two infractions, that do not have the same root case, and therefore both should be applied. However, sometimes multiple errors share the same root cause - such as players thinking Heroic triggers off abilities, and repeatedly using equipment to trigger Heroic. In that case, the root cause is the same, making it one infraction. The line about “only the more severe one is applied” is a bit misleading, because 99 times out of 100, the multiple penalties will be of the same type, and therefore have the same level of severity. But in case it ever does happen, the judge will know what to do.
Edited Lyle Waldman (Oct. 15, 2014 03:24:07 PM)
Edited Marc DeArmond (Oct. 15, 2014 03:56:43 PM)
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