I tried searching the forum, and across the web, but I need some help with an explanation on how this works exactly, because I've had it come up several times now and although I'm pretty sure I have the right ruling, I'm not sure how it works exactly in it's implementation with the layers system. I've seen a bunch of different ‘answers’, all from people who have a good understanding of the rules, and I'm still confused.

So let's assume there's an Erebos, god of the dead, and your opponent has humility out, you cast Phyrexian obliterator and now erebos is a creature.

First question: what does erebos look like now? Obviously, it's a 1/1 enchantment creature that doesn't have indestructible, or it's card drawing ability…but what about the type-changing ability? Is this an actual ability that is removed by humility in layer 6? Or does it remain because it's not an ability like “indestructible”, or “lifelink”, etc.? If it does remain, how come?

Second question: let's assume that the phyrexian obliterator is later destroyed, which means there is no longer enough devotion to make erebos a creature. Now, from what I understand, erebos isn't locked into being a creature by humility, and if you no longer have enough devotion, he will return to being an enchantment with his original abilities. If this is true, does that mean it's type-changing effect through devotion was really a part of Erebos the whole time, meaning it wouldn't be removed by humility? If humility had removed that ability, wouldn't it remain as a creature? If not, how come?

I know the layers, but am still not great at applying some of the more difficult interactions. Thanks in advance for the help.

Edited Marshall Sweet (May 15, 2014 02:09:27 PM)

This comes down to layers. Humility applies in two layers (layer 6 to remove all abilities, and layer 7b to make the creature into a 1/1). But type-changing effects are applied in an earlier layer (layer 4). If your devotion is high enough, Erebos is a creature, so nothing happens when we apply type-changing effects in layer 4. When we get to layer 6, since Erebos is a creature, Erebos loses all abilities. Then, in layer 7b, Erebos becomes a 1/1. The end result is that Erebos with no abilities and is a 1/1.

If your devotion to black is 4 or less, in layer 4, Erebos's ability makes Erebos not a creature. In layers 6 and 7b, Humility doesn't do anything with Erebos, since Erebos is not a creature. It does not remove any of Erebos's ability, so Erebos will be indestructible and has its normal abilities.

This is constantly checked, so if your devotion to black is at 4 and goes up to 5, Erebos will become a creature and Humility will start affecting it. If your devotion to black is 5 and then drops to 4, due to the way layers work, Erebos stops being a creature and Humility will no longer affect it. It doesn't matter that Humility would remove the ability if Erebos was a creature when we apply layer 6 effects, when we're in layer 4, we have not applied the effect from Humility, so Erebos still has its abilities and can stop being a creature.

Yep, layers can be a little weird sometimes, and this is one of those situations.

Nathan Long
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