Hi friends,

An interesting discussion from an event this weekend. Alabaster is playing Nalathni in the final round of a Grand Prix, with the winner making top 16 and the loser likely dropping to top 64. A draw would lock both for top 32. Both players are shuffling for game 3, Alabaster having won game 2 in convincing fashion. The matchup is considered quite favourable for Alabaster. Shivan, a spectator who is friends with Nalathni, says “Nalathni you should just offer the draw.” Alabaster immediately calls for a judge.

What do you do? Does your answer change if the matchup is favourable for Nalathni?

Originally posted by Chris Lansdell:

What do you do?

I would speak with Shivan away from the table. I would ask them why they told Nalathni to offer the draw. Most likely they would say they don't think Nalathni could win the third game. At that point I would get the head judge involved and Shivan would probably get penalized for outside assistance if they were also a player in the event.

Originally posted by Chris Lansdell:

Does your answer change if the matchup is favourable for Nalathni?

It does not.

Edited Eric Paré (Dec. 5, 2016 08:12:31 PM)

Originally posted by Eric Paré:

Chris Lansdell
Does your answer change if the matchup is favourable for Nalathni?

It does not.

But what will Shivan's answer be then?

Why does penalizing Shivan for Outside Assistance rely upon Shivan being in the event? Does that impact your decision here?

My first though is “you should offer a draw” is not play advice, therefore it's not Outside Assistance. However, the philosophy on OA specifies

Any strategy advice, play advice, or construction advice from an external source is considered outside assistance.

There, we see a more strategic (rather than operational/tactical), a more broad term.

Recently, there was a forum thread dealing with the different parts of OA.

Things stated (and, well, not objected by others) that may be applicable here too were

From Toby Hazes
8. “Result Knowledge”
Not OA.
The decision to offer or accept a draw or scoop does not fall within “play advice”.

From Emilien Wild
And as usual, for such subjective infractions, in the same vein as Slow Play or Unsporting Conduct, the fact that you ask yourself if the infraction has been committed is already a red flag.

Hi everyone!!!

In the past GP Santiago, I had a similar situation.

First, here i think we need to understand when we apply OA.

“When someone asking for advice (about the match) or give some information” (Whe players are sat for the matc)

Here, Shivan dont do anything wrong but he was so close to do.

In conclusion, for me we dont have a real problem. We need to educate Shivan, ask him for get away from the table if we need and intrude the players to keep playing.

Now, if you want and the your Spider Sense tell you…you could investigate for some Bribery.

Cya!!!

Diger :D

Edited Diego Antonio Hernández Meruane (Dec. 6, 2016 08:59:54 AM)

Originally posted by Toby Hazes:

But what will Shivan's answer be then?

It could definitely be a different answer but I'm having trouble imagining what they could say that is different.

Eliana Rabinowitz
Why does penalizing Shivan for Outside Assistance rely upon Shivan being in the event?

Because Shivan would need to be registered as a player for us to record the penalty in the event reporter. If they are not, then the most we can do is ask them to stay away from the match area for the remainder of the round.

Diego Antonio Hernández Meruane
Here, Shivan dont do anything wrong but he was so close to do.

I disagree because what Shivan told Nalathni can give Nalathni the idea that they have the disadvantage in the third game. Thus Nalathni might play differently in order to try to end with a draw rather than play with more risk for the win.

Edited Eric Paré (Dec. 6, 2016 10:04:04 AM)

Originally posted by Eric Paré:

Because Shivan would need to be registered as a player for us to record the penalty in the event reporter. If they are not, then the most we can do is ask them to stay away from the match area for the remainder of the round.

No. You will ask Shivan for his DCI number, add him into the event and report the infraction. In order to keep track of it in WotC DB.

It would probably give him a nice amount of PWP, but that is the way we have been told to do in the past. Optionally, I could imagine writing an e-mail somewhere… investigations@wizards.com?

Edited Milan Majerčík (Dec. 6, 2016 10:37:46 AM)

Originally posted by Diego Antonio Hernández Meruane:

Here, Shivan dont do anything wrong but he was so close to do.

I disagree because what Shivan told Nalathni can give Nalathni the idea that they have the disadvantage in the third game. Thus Nalathni might play differently in order to try to end with a draw rather than play with more risk for the win.

Eric Paré

Well you have a point, but i'm still thinking isn't give a information. The point here is the relevant information or “advice” information.

from MIPG 3.2

““Don’t forget to attack” is play advice; “Quit, so we can go get food” is not play advice”.

I mean if spectator told somethink like “You should offer the draw” for me its like “You could lose, get some price”


Diger :D

Edited Diego Antonio Hernández Meruane (Dec. 6, 2016 11:32:01 AM)

Originally posted by Milan Majerčík:

No. You will ask Shivan for his DCI number, add him into the event and report the infraction. In order to keep track of it in WotC DB.

I thought that's what we do only if a spectator commits an Unsporting Conduct penalty, or am I wrong?

Originally posted by Eric Paré:

Milan Majerčík
No. You will ask Shivan for his DCI number, add him into the event and report the infraction. In order to keep track of it in WotC DB.

I thought that's what we do only if a spectator commits an Unsporting Conduct penalty, or am I wrong?

Your are right. Here (for me) we just need to educated the spectator.

The TO can ask him to leave if he feels he will be a continued problem

Graham

Sent from my iPhone

On 6 Dec 2016, at 14:59, Diego Antonio Hern?ndez Meruane <forum-31929-be4b@apps.magicjudges.org<mailto:forum-31929-be4b@apps.magicjudges.org>> wrote:


Eric Par?
Milan Majer??k
No. You will ask Shivan for his DCI number, add him into the event and report the infraction. In order to keep track of it in WotC DB.
I thought that's what we do only if a spectator commits an Unsporting Conduct penalty, or am I wrong?

Your are right. Here (for me) we just need to educated the spectator.

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So assuming this is not Outside Assistance - as that would make this irrelevant and the penalty/fix/what to do relatively simple -why is what Shivan did wrong or necessitates being pulled away from the match? I understand if Nalathni no longer wishes to have him observing that's a separate issue. But assuming that telling a friend to draw is not considered outside assistance why punish him by no longer allowing him to spectate.

If what he said does not go against ipg or mtr what issue is there with the player saying it? Or by extent, Alabaster asking a friend for advice on drawing or not as well?

Originally posted by Mitchell Wetherson:

So assuming this is not Outside Assistance - as that would make this irrelevant and the penalty/fix/what to do relatively simple -why is what Shivan did wrong or necessitates being pulled away from the match? I understand if Nalathni no longer wishes to have him observing that's a separate issue. But assuming that telling a friend to draw is not considered outside assistance why punish him by no longer allowing him to spectate.

If what he said does not go against ipg or mtr what issue is there with the player saying it? Or by extent, Alabaster asking a friend for advice on drawing or not as well?

We are in the last round…previously to top and cut 32 or 16. So, if some player feel uncomfortable because this situation, we can ask to spectator if he/she can get away a little and wait for his/her friend :D. This is just for customer service.

Diger :D

Originally posted by Diego Antonio Hernández Meruane:

Eric Paré

Milan Majerčík
No. You will ask Shivan for his DCI number, add him into the event and report the infraction. In order to keep track of it in WotC DB.

I thought that's what we do only if a spectator commits an Unsporting Conduct penalty, or am I wrong?

Your are right. Here (for me) we just need to educated the spectator.

This is incorrect. MTR 1.2 clearly states “being enrolled in the tournament is not a requirement to receive a penalty”