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Rules Q&A » Post: copying, P/T-setting, and CDAs

copying, P/T-setting, and CDAs

Aug. 1, 2017 06:44:39 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

copying, P/T-setting, and CDAs

If I use the triggered ability of God-Pharaoh's Gift to exile Apocalypse Demon (or perhaps Tarmogoyf, et al), what's the characteristics of the token that's created?

I'm getting a 4/4 black Flying Zombie named Apocalypse Demon, by applying what I *thought* I knew about layers. I applied the copy in Layer 1, made it a Zombie in Layer 4, etc., and then in the all-important Layer 7, the Demon's CDA would apply in 7a, then the P/T-setting of the Gift's ability in 7b, making it a 4/4.

However, I believe that this matters:
Originally posted by CR 706.9d:

When applying a copy effect that doesn't copy a certain characteristic, retains an original value for a certain characteristic, or modifies the final value of a certain characteristic, any characteristic-defining ability (see rule 604.3) of the object being copied that defines that characteristic is not copied. If that characteristic is color, any color indicator (see rule 204) of that object is also not copied.
Based on that, it seems that the Demon's CDA isn't there at all on the copy, so it's just a 4/4. Same conclusion, but different logic.

In any case, I've seen a screenshot (from MTGO) of an Apocalypse Demon copied by the Gift that seemingly retains its CDA, as the P/T of the token changes when the number of creatures in the graveyard changes.

Thanks for confirming or correcting my understanding; I fear this might confuse more than just me. :)

d:^D

Edited Scott Marshall (Aug. 1, 2017 06:45:44 PM)

Aug. 2, 2017 03:36:22 AM

Callum Milne
Forum Moderator
Judge (Uncertified)

Canada - Western Provinces

copying, P/T-setting, and CDAs

The token is 4/4. CR706.9d is indeed the relevant rule for determining the Demon-copy's power; Apocalypse Demon's CDA isn't copied at all by the ability of God-Pharaoh's Gift, and without that ability, there's no effect to apply in layer 7a. (This rule is what allows Quicksilver Gargantuan to work sensibly when copying creatures with power- and/or toughness-setting CDAs, and yes, it also means that a Gift-copy of Tarmogoyf would get a boost from Muraganda Petroglyphs once the temporary haste wore off.) If MTGO is behaving otherwise, that's a bug.

It should be noted that there's also a second problem with your previous understanding: in addition to there being no effect to apply to the Demon-copy in layer 7a, there's also no effects to apply to it in layers 4 or 7b. (Or 5, for that matter.) The parts of God-Pharaoh's Gift that make the token 4/4, black, and a Zombie are modifications to the copying process, and are therefore covered by CR706.9c:
706.9c Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process. The final value(s) for that characteristic becomes part of the copiable values for the copy.
What this means is that the token is made 4/4, black, and a Zombie as part of the copy effect that's being applied to it in layer 1, not in the later layers where effects normally alter those characteristics. While this doesn't matter in this specific scenario, it becomes very important if you start mixing in more effects, for two reasons:

Firstly, it means that effects that modify the token's type, color, or power and toughness will apply to it the same as they would to a normal creature: if you control a Godhead of Awe, a Shifting Sky set to blue, and a Conspiracy set to Merfolk, for example, a God-Pharaoh's Gift-token of Tarmogoyf will be a 1/1 blue Merfolk no matter what the timestamps of any of those cards are.

Secondly, it means that anything that's trying to copy a God-Pharaoh's Gift-token will see the Gift's modifications: if you Clone a Gift-token-Tarmogoyf, the Clone-Goyf will end up a 4/4 black Zombie, just like the Gift-token-Goyf.


(This same ruling also applies to similar copying-with-exceptions effects such as Embalm, Eternalize, Hour of Eternity, and so on, with minor modifications to take into account exactly which characteristics each specific effect modifies or excludes from the copying process.)

Aug. 2, 2017 08:35:50 AM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

copying, P/T-setting, and CDAs

Thanks, Callum; I felt this question - and an ‘O’fficial answer! - would benefit a lot of us.

Also, for those who reached out to me directly, thanks; sometimes, you'll see me ask a question here so Callum or Nathan can explain it (much better than I would), and we all learn.

d:^D